Shorties or Long tube
 

I currently dont have an h pipe in my car. I'm having one made. i know a few of the differences between the short and long headers

Shorties

More snap
louder

long tube:

more high end power

Just wanted to make sure im right, as well what does everone recomend?
the car only has cat back on it currently

Shorties are not louder than LT's. IT all depends on what done to your car. If its close to stock or slightly modifier I would go with the shorties. LT's are also harder to pass emission with due to the 02 location.

personally i would go long tube, With short tubes you get better low end, and with long tubes you get better top end power, also long tubes sound better too!

but i guess at the end of the day it depends on what your doing with your car..

Long tubes give you the Best Power

Short Will Pass Emmissions :teeth:

Dont need to worry about emmissions :thumb1:


gotta love an 86...lol

sweet.

go long tubes than!

STR on an 86 will probably make the car faster,. You lost low end torque with the LT's. I had an 86 before the turbo car and I went with a mac kit. 1 5/8 LT's 2.5" ORH-pipe, flowmaster mufflers and 2.5 polished tails. Personally I would do the mac 2.5" to 3" flare taipipes for that agressive look.

Whats STR?

I will lose low end torque with the long tubes but it will go faster...is that what you are saying?

Did you like your setup?

The cat back with stainless tips is all new last year. Im just looking for header options then H pipe to fit

the loss of low end torque isn't noticeable,

long-tubes all the way, you won't regret it!

I think im leaning more towards the long tubes... If i already had the H pipe i would probably go shorties tho

i previously have unequal shorty , equal lenth shorty , summit/Flowtech LT's ( bullshit) and now i have just installed BBK long tube and it s very easy to fit , louder sound than the Flowtech . It worth the cost of a good quality of Long tube .

Fitted to the Prochamber , Very DEEEEP sound . As for the hp/tq increasment , i will see tomorow a the track if i gain something ( or win something :D)

Long-Tubes are SUPPOSED to make more power across the board, period, not just up-top. In application....well, things don't always work out they way the are SUPPOSED to.

Given the situation, I would go long-tubes.

If your car is near-stock, I'd go shortys, with LTs you may gain 1-2hp over shortys, LTs are a pain to install and if you ever need to do a starter, clutch, trans etc......you'll be cursing those long tubes for sure, also they tend to hang low to the ground and usually are the first thing to hit, for 1-2hp loss, I'd go shortys, every 'stang I've had has had shortys.

Well, i visited the local part sorce yesterday and placed my order.

BBk Equal length Chrome Longtubes


Thanks everyone for your help :thum:

There are a zillion Mustang specific stores in the GTA, and you bought stuff from PartSource? I hope you get a hell of a deal...

i have a friend who works there.... :thumb1: and i had a gift card that i had to use

I would think you would be able to get more HP then 1-2 considering long tubes are a MUCH better flow then shorties am I not right or what? but I understand there view on the LT's with parts breaking down "starter, clutch, trans, etc........" oh hell that would suck having to drop exhaust everytime you go under Damn! I hate exhaust as it is never mind a ocasional thing.

Really, I wouldn't have wasted my money on either. Ported stockers have been proven to support 300HP, I've gone 13.2 @102 with them and the stock H-pipe. If I would have had a full slick, or been at a decent track it would have been 12s. It's your call though, I would have spent the money elsewhere.

How much flow do you really need on a stock or mildly modded 302? Too much flow can actually lose you power, say you put a 3" exhaust on a stock 5.0, you'd likely lose 5+hp due to the lack of backpressure needed by said engine. Now if you were talking about a 600hp race car, then long tubes and big pipes would be worth some power, but really on a 5.0 shortys and 2.5" exhaust is the most efficient setup, without overdoing it.

You'll lose HP/TQ down low, but you won't lose overall power.

How many race cars, IE, Pro-Stock and the like do you see running exhaust systems? I'll give you a hint, the number starts and ends with 0. They all just run straight headers because, if geared correctly, that'll get you the best 1/4 mile time. Thing is, open exhaust can and often WILL kill low-end power, so, if you are running open exhaust, you need to run mad gear (go out at just at or before limiter) to take advantage of it.

You will love it !! they are easy to install , and they don t wrap the engine like cheaper headers so if you have to remove your starter it can be done without remove the headers .

Since the guy has the funds to put long-tubes on then so be it. They will make the most horspower bar none - and I am talking average not just peak.

Changing the starter with any decent long-tube is no big deal (unless they are 1-7/8+) and the only ones that can be a pita are those god awful cheap-ass flowtech/hedman pieces and in that case you get what you pay for.

Alrighty, you can all go ahead and put long tubes and off-road h-pipes on your stock stangs, it'll make it easier for my stock stang to walk all ove yours.

Should they all just build a car like yours? I have a stocker with a set of long-tubes that I would gladly run you with. When is the CMOC race this year?

lol..It isnt all about quater mile times....

I dont think this car will ever see a track. I dont want to twist her. Im going more for look and sound. I dont have to etest the car so i went long tubes.

congrats
when are they comming in?


maybe if you had of said something when he asked for everyones opinion,rather then after he placed his order, then you might be able to criticis his decision :bluecool:

I pick them up on Monday

they hadn't of come in, he could of cancelled his order easily enough. if he just wants the sound that's fine. as far as racing a stocker for a stocker, well look under the Scone Racing thread in the Forced Induction forum. doubt we'll be able to do that lol. but check my page out and see how little is actually needed to run 12s (or 13s with crappy 60fts). so many people go and spend all this money on exhaust right away and all it does is hurt performance. i'm just trying to look out for the guy who hasn't got a lot of money and wants to go fast, I've proven it can be done.

So which is it? is free-er flowing exhaust a good thing or not? Because, you just said it hurts performance...

From your site, your car has...
- Open exhaust off ported headers
- 3.73 gears
- Ported TB
- MSD Coil
- slicks on rear, skinnies on front
- Removed front sway bar
- Electric Fan
- UD pullies
- 16* timing
- 13.29 @ 101.29 MPH - 1.82 60' ft.

I'd hardly consider 1.82 a crappy 60-ft. Most guys on street tires (not DR's) are upwards of 2.1. With street tires your car is likely in the high 13s. Without getting the parts used or free, your mods aren't THAT cheap.

Uh you'll have to read more carefully next time...

open exhaust after the stock 4 cat (ungutted) H-pipe
9 or 10 year old ET Streets..not slicks

had i had slicks, or if St. Thomas would prep their track 1.6 60fts would have been possible resulting in a high 12 second pass. my 102MPH run shows that the car has the power for 12s even with the little done (gears, pullies, and an MSD Coil). and don't forget, my car is an 86 with the crappy flowing E6 heads unlike you 87+ guys AND it's 300,000Kms ain't helping it either lol

so no, when you're as stock as me you don't need free flowing exhaust. you need back pressure for lots of off the line tq

a good example of it hurting is my buddies old 89 coupe. with some minor bolt ons (like me...and a couple other things like an aluminum ds, weld wheels, etc.) he ran 13.1, after that he put on equal length shorties and an off-road x-pipe, went back and went SLOWER. the car felt like it was screaming up top, but all the low end grunt was just gone, and that hurt it at the track.

no, you don't NEED it, but it helps...what any header loses in low end power, it EASILY more than makes up for it in top end power.

Different day, different times...sorry, but that data means nothing...

Hence my response above: To run open exhaust CORRECTLY (like the Pro's do) You need MAD GEAR to make up for the loss in low-end power. Your buddy, with like 4.56's and his stock exhaust vs. his updated exhaust and the taller gears SHOULD be faster with the better flowing exhaust. BUT, I'm sure he doesn't have 4.56's does he?

Proper gearing is CRUCIAL to take advantage of your powerband.........but really is only relevant on a strip-only car. You cannot expect to run 5.xx gears on the street and it be drivable, hell, even 4.56's probably suck on a street car. SO, there is the compromise, which is why 3.73's are so popular.

Its all relative. Back-pressure on a very much street-oriented car, with moderate or stock gearing can be beneficial due to low-end torque production.

Free flowing exhaust is a better thing on a very much track-oriented car because, with proper gear for the power output, the car will be faster with the open exhaust.

Jay Allen, of Camshaft Innovations has run an 11.56 in his full-weight 90 notch with a stock '93 cobra longblock, longtubes, 3.73's, Systemax II intake and one of his cams. The heads were stock GT40's with upgraded valve springs and setup for running stud-mount rockers. No port work, nada. So, you want to talk going fast with stock parts, he's definitely done it.

Now, as soon as you start upgrading the induction package and making the engine a more efficient pump......well, then upgraded exhaust will almost become a necessity in order to make optimal power.

long tube and prochamber makes a reaaaly deep sound !!! wowwww :thumb1:

true, it means very little. how about some physics then? on a basically stock motor what is important for excavating the exhaust fumes from the combustion chamber is exhaust velocity. when you bolt up a huge set of headers to a stock motor you're gonna lose all the velocity, the combustion chamber won't empty as fast, at least not until the upper rpms when it's producing more exhaust fumes increasing the pressure and the velocity. keep in mind that in the upper rpm range it's not excavating any faster than it would with the stockers, it's doing it about the same. the stockers however are emptying the chamber faster at the low rpms giving you better performance. also, having the bigger exhaust can lead to burnt valves because they aren't getting rid of all the hot gasses.

if you don't believe me do some research, there have been tons of back to back dyno tests proving that in a car making less than 300HP aftermarket headers don't help, and can even hurt performance compared to ported stockers...

I have track results from my old 89 LX Notch to back up what Scones said.

It was a bone stock 89 top to bottom longblock, with the usual bolt ons, pullies, a 65mm TB, Cone filter, bored out stock MAF, timing bumped, 3.73s, 2.95 T5, alum DS, headers were stock ones with the welds on the inside hogged out [did this when I did my new clutch], stock H pipe, and straight pipes from the stock H out the back to dynomax stainless tails.. [it sounded nice]. Slicks and skinnies. Car ran 13.11 @ 102.74 MPH and was doing low 1.7s for 60s. Lots of 13.1s all day and ran 102 all day.

I added, full rear suspension with Baseline Suspension adjustable uppers, Pro3i lowers with weight jackers, mac shorites [equals], pacesetter off road X, and a Magnaflow cat back. I was really.. gearing up exhaust wise for the AFR 165s, and intake and cxrap that was to follow.

Anyways same weather conditions, I took the LX back, hoping to squeak into the 12s with my new found tracion and the 15 or so HP I surely would get from the exhaust. Wrong. Car bested a 13.199 and went 102 MPH once and rest of the day was 101 MPH car running 13.20-13.30s @ 101.xx MPH. Prior to the aftermakret exhaust, I was able to cut 1.7s all day leaving between 4500-5000, and with the traction stuff and exhaust, I got ONE 1.79 60 [it got me the 13.19999999] and I had to leave at almost 6000 RPM out of anger.

The car seriously did go slower with the larger exhaust. There have been dryno tests on the past that show no gains switching to a larger header than stock on a STOCK longblock.. on a stocker there is about 15 HP to be had by a better cat back.. It threw both Mike [Scones] and I for a loop, because it "felt" faster when I added the better exhaust parts due to the lack of low end, you could literally feel the motor come on around 3500 and start to pull.. so I thought.. "wow, not a bad gain there.." till I actuall got some times for it on slicks.

IF you are planning big mods like heads/intake/rockers or cam/ etc then by all means buy headers/exhaust then... OR, of you have a power adder... on a stock motor then headers will make huge diffs.. but unless... then the factory headers and even H pipe if its on decent shape is plenty for a 225 HP engine lol..

This was my experience anyways.

A proper set of stepped long-tubes will create more air flow and velocity (due to scavanging) than the stockers. BUT, most aftermarket longtubes aren't stepped. And the stepped ones are much more money.

Velocity is relative to pipe diameter. If you replace your stockers with a set of longtubes with the same diameter of pipe, you aren't decreasing the velocity, because the diameter of the tube that the exhaust is exiting through has remained the same. What you MAY do is increase flow, by the better scavanging characteristics the longtubes have over the shorties, even if not stepped. Thing is, nobody puts a 1 1/2" set of longtubes on their car to compare. Its always like 1 5/8ths and 1 3/4's, which will decrease velocity, since the diameter of the pipe has increased.

Back-pressure would hurt velocity, so, having the stock 4-cat H-pipe isn't helping you by providing increased velocity; the size of the pipe that the exhaust is flowing through is doing that. An off-road H-pipe of the same diameter, would increase flow and maintain better velocity.

Its all relative. Upgrade the pump, and then all of the above changes as well.

See, that was easy wasn't it?-question answered, pure and simple. you guys could go on forever with this...........seems this site is getting more and more like another site we won't mention..............mine's bigger than yours is.........

The "Tech Guru" has an issue with people having a peaceful discussion with valid points about exhaust... :toilet:

It would appear so.

Isn't arguing technical theory in a civil manner what the 5.0 Tech forum is all about?

BTW, Overkill - I agree with your last statement whole heartedly. Too bad they don't make 1 1/2 inch long tubes....that'd be neat.

Keep in mine this is all irrevelent. Its all about flow vs velocity. For example if you port heads to big they flow huge numbrs but the velocity sucks. This basically translates into a poor performing car. But how can that be? The heads flow more so they should make more power right? nope.


Here's a question. What flows more? My 1 3/4 shorties or 1 5/8's long tubes? I have bigger primaries but the LT shoudl have better welocity becaus eof the individual runners.

I bet my shorties flow more and make more horsepower.....but then again we now have to look at an engine entire combo.