trouble advancing timing
 

i recently reset my base timing after installing cobra intake. i did this by turning the crank to "0" degrees and making sure the rotor was pointing at #1plug wire. The engine started up fine in that position, albeit with a very lopy idle.

today i bought a timing light and tried to advance my timing. i decided to go with 14 degrees and if i heard pinging was gonna back it off (it's cold, and i've got 87 octane in the tank, so figured i would probably get some pinging) until the pinging went away. here's the procedure i followed and the problem i encountered:

i unplugged the spout connector, loosened the hold-down bolt just enough to turn the distrib by hand, hooked up the timing light and turned the key. the engine fired up just as before. when i aimed the timing light at the balancer (with the clip on #1 wire), however, i got a reading of 10 degrees ATDC.

how can this be? shouldn't i have gotten a "0" reading where i had it set? how could it have started up at 10 ATDC? i tried turning the distrib clockwise but there's only so far i can turn it before the wire harness hits the intake and i can't turn it anymore, and that only got me back up to what the timing light said was "0" degrees TDC.

is there a prob with my balancer? has something slipped? i'm confused now. can anyone help me?wall:

the odds of you actually stabbing it at "0" is pretty slim. You may have to pull it out and advance it one more tooth to get the right amount of movement in the distributor to get the advance your looking for.

10* ADV. is your base timing with spout out. If you want 14* ADV. your going to need 94 Oct to take the ping away.

What kind of timing light did you buy? is it the one were it has a dial on it? or is it the plain jane timing light with no settings?.

it's the plane jane one with no dial - just point it and shoot and the lights start flashing so i can read off the balancer. i asked about the one with the dial but the salesman told me i didn't need it and it was twice as expensive. the timing light i got should be good enough to read the timing and advance it by rotating the distrib though, isn't it?

if you put it back at 0 timing, that is 10 degrees of total timing

Don't worry it is correct

Well if its just the basic model, just point at it and it should read 10* with spout out.
good luck :)

^How do you figure that? 0 is 0, 10 is 10.

Steve, you must have the distributor out a tooth, you should easily be able to set it to 14 deg. without the module wire hitting. Pull it out and try a tooth ahead, you may need someone to "bump" the engine over with it in there in order for it to seat.

Also, you can run 14 deg. with 87 octane-I do it all the time, no pinging at all-every car is different though, but you should be fine.

Holy !!! I would love to see that. Im not calling you a lier but I would really like to see that.
I couldn't even run 91 OCT without ping @ 14* ADV but 94 sure did fix the problem :)

87 @ 14* ADV man your lucky if you can do that ;)

Ya never mind I re-read his post...you are out a tooth


I would burn premium any time you bump up your timing but that is just me, you might be able to get away with it but why chance it for 10 cents a litre

Done it on 4 different 5.0L foxes, one even had H/C/I, never ran anything but regular.thumb:

OK. i've spent another afternoon in the garage and im getting nowhere (except frustrated). i've now done this 6 times: cranked it to 0*, installed the distrib so the rotor points exactly at #1 on the cap, turned the key to start her up and shot the timing light at the balancer. Every time i get a totally dif reading: 10*ATC, 10*BTC...etc. seems to be completely random what reading i'm going to get. i know i'm on the compression stroke when i set it at TDC because i've held my finger in the #1 plug hole when i'm setting it and felt the strong push of air. i've also checked and rechecked at least 4 times that i've got my spark plug wires in the right firing order. so what am i doing wrong? i've heard i'm "off a tooth" by which i take it everyone means i'm off one tooth on the gear like thingy at the bottom of the distrib, but i've tried pullin it halfway out and moving over a tooth (setting it back down to #1) and that doesn't seem to do anything except produce another random (and way off) reading. how can i be off anything if the balancer is bang on 0* and the rotor points right at #1? and if i am off when i set it that way, how else do i set it to make sure i'm not off? i just don't get it, and i'm obviously misunderstanding something basic here.

the other thing is, the car idles at 750 and stays there, but the idle is really lopy sounding and there TONS of blue smoke coming out the exhaust and my brand new plugs are badly oil foiled. i was burning a bit of oil (not much) before i put in the new intake, but nothing like this. the old plugs i pulled out, for example, were not covered in oil. i've checked the PCV screen and it's clean and oil doesn't seem to be getting sucked up into the intake though there. i don't know what else it could be.

are these probs related? please help if you can.

cheers

^Try moving the distributor so the module wiring is clear of the intake, then check if it's still at #1. If not, you will need to put it ahead 1 tooth in order to get the correct timing advance.
As for the oil, it should not be burning so much oil unless something was assembled wrong. Are you absolutely sure you cleaned the head surface of ALL gasket material before assembling with new gaskets? If the intake is not seated properly on the heads, it may be pulling oil from the lifter valley and burning it in the cylinders.
Could also be that there's no vacuum at the PCV, pull the line off the PCV with the engine running and check for vacuum, if it's not there-there's a problem. You MUST have good vacuum at the PCV or you will get a major pressure buildup in the crankcase which will force oil past the rings and valve seals, which will cause consumption.

OK, richard, i'll give her a try. wont' get the time to do that for some time with 3 kids and the wife gone back to work now, but i'll let you know how it turns out either way. what you're saying about the intake being seated properly makes sense to me - i didnt use the cork gaskets front and back and isntead used black RTV. it seems to have sealed up real well - i've got no leaks - but the lower intake sits a little low on the heads so may be pulling oil from the lifter valley: i wondered if it wasn't a little low once i got it installed but being a novice i wasn't sure. thanks again for the suggestions. i was at a loss and i'm encouraged now that there's something i can do about this. you're the best man.

Happy to help Steve, hope you get it solved.

Are you sure the gaskets are in right? they are stamped 'this side up", but they don't say front or back, common mistake putting the on upside down.

yeah, they're in rightside up. i actually got up early this morning (4 a.m.!!!) and got everything taken out again before heading off to work. the gaskets were in right, but the lower intake was definitely sitting low against the heads (easily 1/8" - oddly enough that's about the thickness of those front and back cork gaskets i didn't use, isn't it :( :(

i'm confident this is going to solve my probs. i'm getting new gaskets and gonna try to get some time to put her back together on sunday afternoon. will letcha know.

thanx again richard!

cheersthumb: rockon:

The end gaskets are junk-don't use them. They have nothing to do with the seating of the intake anyway-they will not cause this.
Was there any oil on the gaskets? like a trail leading to the intake ports?
Is this a new intake? Is there any oil in the intake ports?
Best thing you can do is seat the intake on the old gaskets and check if they like up with the heads, if there's a gap that may be your problem.
Look closely at the old gaskets for the impressions left in them by the intake, see if it lines up with the ports on the heads.

yes, there is oil on the lower intake-to-heads gaskets. there is some oil in the intake ports. the impression left on the old gaskets shows that the lower intake was sitting about 1/8" lower than it should to line up with the ports on the heads. that's why i thought the cork gaskets might help raise it up to the right level, being as they're about 1/8" thick, whereas the ultra black RTV bead i used isn't (once the intake was torqued down - to spec and in the recommended bolt tightening sequence). if the intake is seated low relative to the heads, what should i do if the cork front and rear gaskets aren't the solution? are rubber ones my solution (that's what was under the stock intake, front and back, when i took it off).

when you put your roller rockers on did you remove the baffle in the valvecover? If so it could be drawing through the tube that goes from your oil fill to the throttlebody. I have had this happen and it took days to figure out thats what it was.

hey nickm,

yes, i did remove the baffle in the valvecover to make sure i had clearance for the roller rockers - good point.
but i don't think that's the cause, because i've looked in the throttle body and upper intake and there's no oil residue in there that i can see.
is it possible i wouldn't see anything - ie: that it would be mixed with the rushing air and "vapourized" enough to pass through without coating the walls of the intake black? because there is a little bit of oil residue on the edges of the rings in the upper-to-lower intake gasket; so little though that i can't really be sure.

oh, btw, it is a new cobra intake richard (guy i bought it from ran it for 1 week)
i've had another long look this morning, and i've been looking at it backasswards. if anything the imprints left on the intake suggest that either the intake was sitting high (which i don't think it was - how could it really)or the gasket (intake to heads) was sitting a little low if anything. i'll take some pics of the marks left by the gasket on the intake and the impressions left by the intake on the gaskets, which are still mounted to the heads in the position they were when this was all bolted together. i'll post those pics this evening and see what you guys think

The baffle wouln't cause as much oil consumption as you describe, but you should put a breather on it instead of running the line to the intake IMO.

If the gaskets "fell down", that could cause this problem, did you have them seated in the head gasket notch?

Thats awesome rockon:
I wonder why mine pinged like a bastard........?
I had it 14*Adv.

Yeah, I've heard that before too, never had an issue personally though. Different cars, different results I guess..............

pics...
 

i was carfull to seat them in the gasket notch at each of the 4 corners, but have a look - one of these pics shows a corner; is it seated right, or do these pics reveal a gasket sitting too low? does it appear from the pics that the gasket position might be causing this problem?

also, i realize you say it's not the prob, but i'll put a breather on instead of running the line from the oil fill to the intake if you think i should. what do you mean by "a breather"?

Try a different brand of gaskets and send those back defective with the pics. I always use fel-pro.

You can get a breather anywhere, basically a small open air filter you connect wit a hose clamp, be sure to note the nipple size-I think it's 5/15 or 3/8".

thx richard. why r they defective? have we found my prob?
also, what brand would you suggest? the ones in the pics are felpro (#1250)

What heads are those? You look like you could use stock intake gaskets on those. Would give you a fair bit more sealing surface.

Everybody does it differently.

When I've done it on my cars (the purple one and the Lincoln) I used the Ford Grey RTV. Make sure you RTV around the coolant ports. use the RTV to "glue" the gasket to the head and let it setup for 10-20 minutes.

I also use the rubber end seals with a thin skin of the RTV on the tops and bottoms with dabs in the corners.

Gluing the gaskets to the heads with the RTV prevents them from sagging and doing the fun stuff yours are doing.

And, as I said, every engine is different, without the baffles in my valve covers, I have no noticeable oil consumption on the Lincoln, and when the other engine was in the purple car, it was the same way.

Torque sequence is very important as well. Go slow, do it in steps and don't stop until they are all down and at torque.

Let it sit. Come back an hour later and re-check the torque on them.

Are you sure those are for your 5.0L? the ports look a bit big to me, they usually seal much closer than that. Are they for a Cobra intake? if so, that's likely your problem. The Cobra has GT-40 heads which have bigger ports, in which case they are not defective, but used on the wrong application. Go get an intake set for your year, make, model and use those, you don't need another upper gasket if yours is in good shape and not torn, it can be re-used.
I can't say if that's the oil-consumption problem for sure-but it looks like it could be.
The Fel-Pro gaskets I use are all blue in colour-not black like those. Did you modify those gaskets? the coolant port looks like it was cut open. When you get the new ones, make sure they fit better. You may need to bend the head gasket up a bit to help them better fit the head ports if they still don't line up.
If you care, when I do a set, here's my method:
-both surfaces must be absolutely clean
-all fasteners must be absolutely clean
-lay down the gaskets with "side up" facing up
-apply a continuous bead of RTV black (or equivalent) silicone to the ends with about 1/8"overlap to the gaskets
-install intake immediately and begin torque procedure
-go around the bolts in the correct sequence until they are all torqued (this sometimes takes 10 sequences or so)
-change oil (filter too if needed or engine has been run)
-wait at least an hour before filling coolant and running engine.

Ponyryd: The 1250's have a modifiable coolant crossover hole in them; There is a spot that is meant to be cut out for use on some heads, left in for use on others.

And those are the normal Felpro 1250's, which are a perfect fit for the TFS intakes and are called for by many aftermarket head manufacturers including AFR for use with their heads.

thanks a lot guys. yeah, these are the 1250s, and are recommended for thet cobra intake. the instructions told me to cut out the part of the coolant port gasket material that didn't fit my application.
and yes, these are stock heads. i'm gonna run em until 2009 and hopefully get something better then, but for now i've got the stock E6 (i know they're bad!!!) heads found only on the '86s. what i'm hearing then from OVERKILL and PONYRYD is that i should go get the regular gaskets for my year and stock heads, so i'm gonna go and do that and see if the fit isn't a little better and tighter around the port holes. i hope that's the prob. i was real careful to tighten all the bolts in the recommended sequence, though i did so in 3 stages, not more than that. i was also real about making sure the head and intake surfaces were super duper clean and dry. i'll follow your guys' instructions carefully and see how she turn out.

thank you all for your time and generous advice (and patience with the newbie)...

^Right, but they look too big for stock heads.

Steve, is that intake ported? do a trial fit with the new gaskets first and make sure the intake isn't the problem. If it's been ported over stock-it may sit too lo even with stock gaskets.

Yeah, I think we've already agreed on that as per my previous post ;)

To the OP:

Here's a 1250 (can't see the gasket) sized port. This is a TFS-R intake and a ported GT40 iron.

http://www.darkfibrecommunications.c...ortcloseup.jpg

PROBLEM RESOLVED! :)

I've been computerless for 9 days, so haven't gotten on to tell ya'll how things turned out.

It appears the gaskets were in fact the prob. Got some for the stock heads and voila, no more clouds of thick smoke comin out the pipes! Haven't got the breathers on yet Richard, but will this weekend.

Now i realize i've taken us far away from where this post started out (prob setting the timing), and i still haven't got that sorted out as my timing light crapped out on me. Store gave me a brand new one in exchange, but haven't had the time to get to that yet as i've got a child in hospital right now, but i'll get to her in time. I'm just real glad to have the oil prob sorted out.

THANK YOU again to all who posted and helped me get this fixed. I think i may have said this before.... but you guys on this site are the BEST! Thanks again man.

Steve thumb: thumb: thumb:

Sorry to hear about a sick child Steve-hope everything is ok.
Glad to hear about the clean-burning car though. For the breather, you can use one on the nipple as mentioned, or simply plug the nipples off and run a breather for an oil cap. I'd go with the nipple-style personally, cuz' the cap will be oily and every time you open or touch it-you'll get greasy hands.no: