Shorties or Long tube
08-13-2006, 02:09 AM
#41
Originally Posted by Speedtospare
Keep in mine this is all irrevelent. Its all about flow vs velocity. For example if you port heads to big they flow huge numbrs but the velocity sucks. This basically translates into a poor performing car. But how can that be? The heads flow more so they should make more power right? nope.
Here's a question. What flows more? My 1 3/4 shorties or 1 5/8's long tubes? I have bigger primaries but the LT shoudl have better welocity becaus eof the individual runners.
I bet my shorties flow more and make more horsepower.....but then again we now have to look at an engine entire combo.
Here's a question. What flows more? My 1 3/4 shorties or 1 5/8's long tubes? I have bigger primaries but the LT shoudl have better welocity becaus eof the individual runners.
I bet my shorties flow more and make more horsepower.....but then again we now have to look at an engine entire combo.
08-13-2006, 02:15 AM
#42
[QUOTE=but really on a 5.0 shortys and 2.5" exhaust is the most efficient setup, without overdoing it.[/QUOTE]
Very true, but long tubes with 2.50" id think it would be a good setup but maybe not learn something new every day. :3:
Very true, but long tubes with 2.50" id think it would be a good setup but maybe not learn something new every day. :3:
08-13-2006, 09:53 AM
#43
Keep in mine this is all irrevelent. Its all about flow vs velocity. For example if you port heads to big they flow huge numbrs but the velocity sucks. This basically translates into a poor performing car. But how can that be? The heads flow more so they should make more power right? nope.
Larger ports do not necessarily = low velocity and on the same hand too much ‘velocity’ is a worse situation. If the airspeed in the port is too high then it will stall and when it does this power goes down the toilet. A great example of this is a TFS Twisted Wedge head out of the box. Put it on a flow bench and watch what happens after .550 lift. IF your thinking what does it matter my cam doesn’t reach that lift point, think again because it does matter in the real world, if you care about making the most out of what you have that is.
Here's a question. What flows more? My 1 3/4 shorties or 1 5/8's long tubes? I have bigger primaries but the LT should have better welocity becaus eof the individual runners.
I bet my shorties flow more and make more horsepower.....but then again we now have to look at an engine entire combo.
08-13-2006, 10:22 AM
#44
First off I am not slamming anyone here, just pointing out some facts I don’t fully agree with. I am glad that we can do so in a civilized manner on this here forum as Scones noted earlier.
This is in response to the 2 gentlemen that are downplaying the worth of a good long tube header. From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong here) one of which who hasn’t used them & the other has used them once. If true, not quite the demographics I would rely on in making an educated decision. I am not entirely disagreeing with some of their comments, however I am not convinced you have effectively used them enough to validate their merit.
Schlodes – your example is definitely real world and no one can take this away from you. Since you’ve actually attempted the LT swap you can at least say you tied it and it didn’t work out in your case. This is miles better then prophesizing beliefs that the originator hasn’t even exercised for themselves.
On that topic if I hear another comment that piston to valve clearance is solely due to cam lift I will scream. Those who still believe so please turn an engine over some time with a sparkplug removed and/or with the intake manifold off and watch where the valves are in relation to the piston at peak lifts. Once you realize the truth is totally different then what you’ve imagined embrace it and apply this to all your other unconfirmed beliefs.
I have a friend who would not use 1.7 rockers solely due to the fact the one time he did the car slowed down noticeably. He was convinced that 1.7 rockers were no good for any application based on this experience. Blame went to the added lift taxing the valve springs; and maybe the head didn’t flow well at the higher valve lifts, and so on while the real problem was never addressed. Later it was proven that the preload adjustment was way out of whack. He then finally realized the errors of his ways and accepted it.
You have some graphs to back these multiple dyno tests up? And they must be ones from the same day/chassis dyno/conditions in order to be relevant. Longer primary tube length adds bottom end and doesn’t hurt it. Yes the primary tube diameter can shift power/torque around but most people building their cars eventually want to make more then 300hp, (and when you think about it this isn’t even 1 horsepower per cubic inch - hardly worth considering high performance). You wouldn’t want to limit yourself with a set of stock headers.
Also if your upgrading why not skip the aftermarket shorties and go with a set of LT’s to take advantage of more average hp/torque. Those same basic 1-5/8 LT’s will take you a long way, (definitely into the 10’s naturally aspirated & 9’s with a power adder) which is more then enough for most.
I’m sure it may have ‘felt’ the same but unless you can provide the corrected altitude the point is pretty much moot. You may be able to ‘feel’ the air – but that’s as effective as trying to see it. You need expensive equipment to accurately measure the actual air conditions. You said it yourself you were convinced that the car felt faster, which in your case turned out to be wrong (we call this the *** dyno – and it can lie!) so I’m going to take a wild guess that your ‘weather station’ may need re-calibration as well.
Yes the 60 was off but track preparation and the air will effect this as well. How long did you run the LT’s? Long enough for the pcm to adjust to the new configuration - and remember the 02’s are not in the best position either. To make a fair comparison you should have adjusted the fuel pressure - its like uncorking a carb’d car and not trying a jet change – if the headers support more power and the current a/f ratio was spot on or a tad lean the engine needs more fuel to make it more power.
Ever wonder why certain cars pick up more then others when with the exhaust dropped? Of course there are many other factors that can affect this as well – camshaft design (lobe ) cylinder head (exhaust port) and the exhaust system itself. If any of these areas are lacking then the car may pick up more the the next with the exhaust removed.
Exactly, great Answer.
Bottom line is how does anyone expect huge gains from a header swap on a stock engine when the heads & intake don’t flow worth a shi+! If you know for sure that the guy will never go past the simple bolt-on stage then he can definitley stick with a simple header design however since this stuff is a damn addiction most never stop so keep the future in mind.
This is in response to the 2 gentlemen that are downplaying the worth of a good long tube header. From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong here) one of which who hasn’t used them & the other has used them once. If true, not quite the demographics I would rely on in making an educated decision. I am not entirely disagreeing with some of their comments, however I am not convinced you have effectively used them enough to validate their merit.
Schlodes – your example is definitely real world and no one can take this away from you. Since you’ve actually attempted the LT swap you can at least say you tied it and it didn’t work out in your case. This is miles better then prophesizing beliefs that the originator hasn’t even exercised for themselves.
On that topic if I hear another comment that piston to valve clearance is solely due to cam lift I will scream. Those who still believe so please turn an engine over some time with a sparkplug removed and/or with the intake manifold off and watch where the valves are in relation to the piston at peak lifts. Once you realize the truth is totally different then what you’ve imagined embrace it and apply this to all your other unconfirmed beliefs.
I have a friend who would not use 1.7 rockers solely due to the fact the one time he did the car slowed down noticeably. He was convinced that 1.7 rockers were no good for any application based on this experience. Blame went to the added lift taxing the valve springs; and maybe the head didn’t flow well at the higher valve lifts, and so on while the real problem was never addressed. Later it was proven that the preload adjustment was way out of whack. He then finally realized the errors of his ways and accepted it.
The car seriously did go slower with the larger exhaust. There have been dryno tests on the past that show no gains switching to a larger header than stock on a STOCK longblock.. on a stocker there is about 15 HP to be had by a better cat back.. It threw both Mike [Scones] and I for a loop, because it "felt" faster when I added the better exhaust parts due to the lack of low end, you could literally feel the motor come on around 3500 and start to pull.. so I thought.. "wow, not a bad gain there.." till I actually got some times for it on slicks.
Also if your upgrading why not skip the aftermarket shorties and go with a set of LT’s to take advantage of more average hp/torque. Those same basic 1-5/8 LT’s will take you a long way, (definitely into the 10’s naturally aspirated & 9’s with a power adder) which is more then enough for most.
Anyways same weather conditions,
Yes the 60 was off but track preparation and the air will effect this as well. How long did you run the LT’s? Long enough for the pcm to adjust to the new configuration - and remember the 02’s are not in the best position either. To make a fair comparison you should have adjusted the fuel pressure - its like uncorking a carb’d car and not trying a jet change – if the headers support more power and the current a/f ratio was spot on or a tad lean the engine needs more fuel to make it more power.
Ever wonder why certain cars pick up more then others when with the exhaust dropped? Of course there are many other factors that can affect this as well – camshaft design (lobe ) cylinder head (exhaust port) and the exhaust system itself. If any of these areas are lacking then the car may pick up more the the next with the exhaust removed.
IF you are planning big mods like heads/intake/rockers or cam/ etc then by all means buy headers/exhaust then... OR, of you have a power adder... on a stock motor then headers will make huge diffs.. but unless... then the factory headers and even H pipe if its on decent shape is plenty for a 225 HP engine lol..
This was my experience anyways.
This was my experience anyways.
Bottom line is how does anyone expect huge gains from a header swap on a stock engine when the heads & intake don’t flow worth a shi+! If you know for sure that the guy will never go past the simple bolt-on stage then he can definitley stick with a simple header design however since this stuff is a damn addiction most never stop so keep the future in mind.
Last edited by 82306; 08-13-2006 at 10:27 AM.
08-13-2006, 01:02 PM
#45
lol, hey schlodes...this guy must think we're morons who don't know a thing about tuning cars, not to mention he never actually read your post seeing as you used equal length SHORTIES not long tubes 
some good points in there, but if you're willing to admit that on a stock 5.0 that shorty, or even a ported stocker can out-perform a big old longtube why bother spending the money on a part that's going to make you sloweer in the short run...why not save that money and put it towards the heads/intake that are so sh!ty and then upgrade the exhaust at the same time or afterwards? in essence by "thinking about the future" you are spending hard earned money on a part that you don't need yet and is going to hurt you until you do need it.
some good points in there, but if you're willing to admit that on a stock 5.0 that shorty, or even a ported stocker can out-perform a big old longtube why bother spending the money on a part that's going to make you sloweer in the short run...why not save that money and put it towards the heads/intake that are so sh!ty and then upgrade the exhaust at the same time or afterwards? in essence by "thinking about the future" you are spending hard earned money on a part that you don't need yet and is going to hurt you until you do need it.
08-13-2006, 01:34 PM
#46
No he's referring to me. Where did I imply you guys are morons? Maybe you should re-read my post. Yes I realize I thought that at least one of you guys had run set of longtubes – sorry my mistake. With that in mind since the thread is titled "shorties or Long Tubes" how are your comments applicable?
Scones I have been on here long enough to know you pimp smack anyone thinking of buying headers. In fact I remember seeing where you went on a WTB Long-Tubes thread and asked the poster why bother buying LT’s? Did you know his combo/future plans? Did you care? Interestingly enough I sold him that h-pipe.
I never said that anywhere, where in the hell did you read that? I clearly said IF you know for sure a person was going to keep their combination real basic then they could get away with the shorty headers, and yes the long-tubes will make more jam period.
How many cars have you actually tuned?
I have track results from my old 89 LX Notch to back up what Scones said.
but if you're willing to admit that on a stock 5.0 that shorty, or even a ported stocker can out-perform a big old longtube why bother spending the money on a part that's going to make you sloweer in the short run...
lol, hey schlodes...this guy must think we're morons who don't know a thing about tuning cars, not to mention he never actually read your post seeing as you used equal length SHORTIES not long tubes
08-13-2006, 03:03 PM
#47
i remember the thread you're talking about. i simply asked why he wanted long tubes...his reason, he had an h-pipe for them. well, looks like he was stuck having to get LTs unless he got rid of that pipe. now had his reason been "I got a 331 stroker, with ported edlebrocks, an RPM II, etc. etc.,"I woulda been like "right on, go with Macs if you can find them cheap" or something to that effect. there's a time and a place for long tubes and one of the first mods to your 5.0 isn't one of them. i was lucky enough that hen i got into cars i had a lot of gus with lots of experiences to share and to help get me going in the right direction. not everyone has that so i'm just trying to share what i've learned over the years. if you're a poor sob like me and every penny is dear, well take my advice and be faster for less. if you just like throwing money at your car so you can pop the hood and show off your goodies, well good for you....
as far as cars i've tuned, if we're just talking mustangs i've had everything from a 2.3 turbo, to a carbed 5.0, as well as my current fuelie 5.0 and they've all been known for being ridiculously quick for the little $$$ that was in them....infer what you want from that.
as far as cars i've tuned, if we're just talking mustangs i've had everything from a 2.3 turbo, to a carbed 5.0, as well as my current fuelie 5.0 and they've all been known for being ridiculously quick for the little $$$ that was in them....infer what you want from that.
08-13-2006, 03:33 PM
#48
CMOC Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lidsville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 407
Whoa, this took a turn for the worst quick. I actually wasn't really singling anyone out with my reply, it was... just.. a.. reply in general.
I was just posting MY OWN experience with going from a stock exhaust on a stock motored bolt on car to a full exhaust, and in my case it really didnt do anything. I went with afr 165s/used edelbrock intake I port matched to the 165s/1.7RRs, 65 tb, 24 lb injs and pro m maf. It went 12.30s @ 111 then on the stock shortblock and cam, and i'm sure the exhaust helped lol.
Far as tuning cars i'm ok with GN/T Types, efi 5.0s and i'm doing ok with this 2.3 I have now :thumb1:
Back when I was doing the stock deal with my LX I had a friend with another 89 Notch, we were sort of in a war to see who could crack a 12 first.. his car HAD long tubes and a BBK off road H, and flowmaster cat back, along with a built rear end that had a Detroit tru -trac and 31 spline axles. Anyways cars were the same other wise and he ran a 13.09 @ 102 MPH. It was whoever got out of the hole best, but there was never ever a HP difference. He and I would play around on the street from a roll and it was door to door, literally.
Dang man.. lifes too short, go buy some headers!!!!!!!! :4:
I was just posting MY OWN experience with going from a stock exhaust on a stock motored bolt on car to a full exhaust, and in my case it really didnt do anything. I went with afr 165s/used edelbrock intake I port matched to the 165s/1.7RRs, 65 tb, 24 lb injs and pro m maf. It went 12.30s @ 111 then on the stock shortblock and cam, and i'm sure the exhaust helped lol.
Far as tuning cars i'm ok with GN/T Types, efi 5.0s and i'm doing ok with this 2.3 I have now :thumb1:
Back when I was doing the stock deal with my LX I had a friend with another 89 Notch, we were sort of in a war to see who could crack a 12 first.. his car HAD long tubes and a BBK off road H, and flowmaster cat back, along with a built rear end that had a Detroit tru -trac and 31 spline axles. Anyways cars were the same other wise and he ran a 13.09 @ 102 MPH. It was whoever got out of the hole best, but there was never ever a HP difference. He and I would play around on the street from a roll and it was door to door, literally.
Dang man.. lifes too short, go buy some headers!!!!!!!! :4:
08-14-2006, 06:13 PM
#50
:thumb1: LOL...WOW.....so much information
Sorry for the war everyone....
I did say that the motor was near stock, but that dosent mean it will stay stock. Also, I didnt ask you what the best way to do exaust or gain track times or anything like that. i asked what would Headers, be it shorties or long tubes will work best with my near stock setup that i have now. I wanted to do headers. I didnt want to port my exaust valves and spend money on msd coils....not yet.
Thanks you everyone for your opinons and informations
:teeth:
Sorry for the war everyone....
I did say that the motor was near stock, but that dosent mean it will stay stock. Also, I didnt ask you what the best way to do exaust or gain track times or anything like that. i asked what would Headers, be it shorties or long tubes will work best with my near stock setup that i have now. I wanted to do headers. I didnt want to port my exaust valves and spend money on msd coils....not yet.
Thanks you everyone for your opinons and informations
:teeth:
