Ford's Restructuring Plans "Way Forward"
01-24-2006, 03:50 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by 1BADRIDE
but with the raping the CAW has done to Ford/GM over the past couple of decades... did they expect something different?
01-24-2006, 04:36 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I was referring to the fact that Ford has been employing people in North America at their assembly plants (as has GM) for DECADES! So, they are paying Pensions, benefits and things for employees who are no longer making them money, that is what I'm referring to as higher overhead. If Bill, his dad and his grandpa were all Ford Employees, Ford is paying the benefits for all THREE generations here, even though only the latest generation is now making money for them, understand now?
very true!
01-24-2006, 04:41 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by 2000BLKGT
That quote seems misleading...cause it would account for car components being built...and I'm referring to overall assembly....and it also doesn't account for "North America"....if memory serves...Canada builds a few things...as does Mexico.
I assumed that most vehicles in North America were "assembled" here.
I assumed that most vehicles in North America were "assembled" here.
01-24-2006, 06:46 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by G-ForceJunkie
I believe you are correct, that does not take into account overall assembly. BUT when it says American content, it includes Canada, but NOT Mexico. The domestics build quite a few things in Mexico, whereas the the Imports don't.
Mike.
01-24-2006, 06:48 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by trickflow jay
sir this is NOT the reason 30,000 workers are being laid off.Please stop with the rhetoric.
Mike.
01-24-2006, 07:12 PM
#16
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Sorry, but I need to go to work on this:
Actually they get it in the azz from bad management and poor quality in mid-sized cars.
In the 50's my grandparents laughed at VW's, in the 60's they laughed at Subaru's, In the 70's they laughed at toyota's, In the 80's we laughed at Hyundai's, in the 90's we laughed at Daewoo's, but after a while, the record speaks for itself. Total cost of ownership, total recalls, total TSB's, total residual value, overall satisfaction and build quality. That is why the public buys them, not because anyone told them too.
Agreed, but can you fit your family in your kickass technologically superior Corvette?
Refer to why above in point 2....
I'll point all the fingers I want to at Ford & GM, they have just as much chance to get me to buy a car as anyone else. If all buyers are now "sheep" as you suggest above, then they can do the same thing the imports did to get their buyers back in a 5 year plan. OOPS, they've already had 15 years to do it. I guess business acumen and bad management never factor in there eh?
50 years of "baggage". Wouldn't you think that would make you wiser?
Yes, there are huge repercussions. The auto industry IS the economy in one way or another, so it's time for them to think ahead, not ask for sympathy sales.
You kill me. I own two domestics and an Import. I've owned almost everything in the past. No german yet. I love domestic cars and I will always have one, but as normal daily transportation, they don't always win at the bottom line and that's how people live. With their bottom line. If the big three can crack the mid-sized market and win, they will get back on their feet. You can't live on sports cars and trucks alone. They need to make better mid-sized cars for lower prices, they will sell like hot-cakes and they will return to financial liberation. People that only own one car and are not enthusiasts will only change habits with cost/benefit results.
At that point, they'll also have me back in that market segment. Until then my friend.
Well, this is EXACTLY what happens when people find it cool to buy Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi....etc, the domestic companies get fucked in the ***.
Ever since the advent of those blazing adventures of Ricer glory, aka: The fast and the furious (or the slow and the ricey) 1, 2 and now 3, there has been a HUGE insurgence of import faith and popularity. A product once viewed as a sort of "alternative route" that nobody (including the big three) took seriously has now suddenly flooded the market with their products and John Q. Public is eating them up.
Now, some will argue that "quality" is the issue here and is/was "driving" people to buy imports, well, the "quality" issue has been addressed for YEARS, it is the fact that imports are viewed as superior and you are driving a technologically-flawed dinosaur unless you are driving an Import. The Corvette gets better gas mileage than the Camry, but you don't hear people bragging about that now do you?
The funny part about this (if you can say there IS a funny part) is that the same people who are out there buying the new Honda Ridgeline, their wife drives a Civic, their son drives an Acura, their daughter a Corolla will be all upset and pissed that Ford is letting North America down because they are putting 30,000 people out of work......WAKE THE UP! The reason the domestic car market is in a decline (and has been for years) is because it got cool to buy imports, what was once viewed as a novelty is now mainstream
and the "novelty" here is in watching the struggling domestic car companies try to pay their employees, their benefits and all their retirees because their sales have been heavily impacted and are they are now struggling to survive. These people should take a long hard look at themselves and their buying practices before they start pointing their fingers at GM and Ford and saying they are the problem here, take a long look in the mirror folks, its North American buying habbits that are to blame here, not the automobile manufacturers.
Now, I'm not pointing the finger at ANY of the import car makers, its not THEIR fault that people suddenly got a huge interest in their cars, the fact that there are no tarifs to pay to import their products here, that they can setup manufacturing/assembly facilities and assemble their cars over here and don't have the 50+ years of baggage in terms of benefits and retirees that the big three pay into makes the profits on their sales HUGE in comparison to any of the domestic companies.
Ford, GM and Chrysler have had basically free-reign on the domestic market since the car was first mass produced here. They have established a sort of automotive empire if you will, inside that empire is a heirarchical chain of companies and individuals that all feed the empire, this includes body panel manufacturing facilities, electronics companies, supply chains, 3rd party vendors....etc the list is HUGE. These companies and the individuals inside these companies all purchase the empire's product, its a delicate balance, a system that feeds itself and is engrained in the North American economy. The empire's product is being undercut now and when the empire suffers, the pain trickles down and the entire North American economy will suffer, and that means all of us.
Nobody has benefited from any of this except Hollywood film makers who get record sales to their hidious Slow and the Ricey films and of course the import car companies who are reaping the benefits of a market of sheep that will believe anything the mass-media publish. Anybody who wants to blame Ford, Dodge or GM here can take a look in their driveway, if it isn't a big-three product there, then the only person they can blame is themselves.
At that point, they'll also have me back in that market segment. Until then my friend.
01-24-2006, 08:12 PM
#17
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Well, this is EXACTLY what happens when people find it cool to buy Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi....etc, the domestic companies get fucked in the ***.
Ever since the advent of those blazing adventures of Ricer glory, aka: The fast and the furious (or the slow and the ricey) 1, 2 and now 3, there has been a HUGE insurgence of import faith and popularity. A product once viewed as a sort of "alternative route" that nobody (including the big three) took seriously has now suddenly flooded the market with their products and John Q. Public is eating them up.
Now, some will argue that "quality" is the issue here and is/was "driving" people to buy imports, well, the "quality" issue has been addressed for YEARS, it is the fact that imports are viewed as superior and you are driving a technologically-flawed dinosaur unless you are driving an Import. The Corvette gets better gas mileage than the Camry, but you don't hear people bragging about that now do you?
The funny part about this (if you can say there IS a funny part) is that the same people who are out there buying the new Honda Ridgeline, their wife drives a Civic, their son drives an Acura, their daughter a Corolla will be all upset and pissed that Ford is letting North America down because they are putting 30,000 people out of work......WAKE THE UP! The reason the domestic car market is in a decline (and has been for years) is because it got cool to buy imports, what was once viewed as a novelty is now mainstream and the "novelty" here is in watching the struggling domestic car companies try to pay their employees, their benefits and all their retirees because their sales have been heavily impacted and are they are now struggling to survive. These people should take a long hard look at themselves and their buying practices before they start pointing their fingers at GM and Ford and saying they are the problem here, take a long look in the mirror folks, its North American buying habbits that are to blame here, not the automobile manufacturers.
Now, I'm not pointing the finger at ANY of the import car makers, its not THEIR fault that people suddenly got a huge interest in their cars, the fact that there are no tarifs to pay to import their products here, that they can setup manufacturing/assembly facilities and assemble their cars over here and don't have the 50+ years of baggage in terms of benefits and retirees that the big three pay into makes the profits on their sales HUGE in comparison to any of the domestic companies.
Ford, GM and Chrysler have had basically free-reign on the domestic market since the car was first mass produced here. They have established a sort of automotive empire if you will, inside that empire is a heirarchical chain of companies and individuals that all feed the empire, this includes body panel manufacturing facilities, electronics companies, supply chains, 3rd party vendors....etc the list is HUGE. These companies and the individuals inside these companies all purchase the empire's product, its a delicate balance, a system that feeds itself and is engrained in the North American economy. The empire's product is being undercut now and when the empire suffers, the pain trickles down and the entire North American economy will suffer, and that means all of us.
Nobody has benefited from any of this except Hollywood film makers who get record sales to their hidious Slow and the Ricey films and of course the import car companies who are reaping the benefits of a market of sheep that will believe anything the mass-media publish. Anybody who wants to blame Ford, Dodge or GM here can take a look in their driveway, if it isn't a big-three product there, then the only person they can blame is themselves.
Rant mode off.
Ever since the advent of those blazing adventures of Ricer glory, aka: The fast and the furious (or the slow and the ricey) 1, 2 and now 3, there has been a HUGE insurgence of import faith and popularity. A product once viewed as a sort of "alternative route" that nobody (including the big three) took seriously has now suddenly flooded the market with their products and John Q. Public is eating them up.
Now, some will argue that "quality" is the issue here and is/was "driving" people to buy imports, well, the "quality" issue has been addressed for YEARS, it is the fact that imports are viewed as superior and you are driving a technologically-flawed dinosaur unless you are driving an Import. The Corvette gets better gas mileage than the Camry, but you don't hear people bragging about that now do you?
The funny part about this (if you can say there IS a funny part) is that the same people who are out there buying the new Honda Ridgeline, their wife drives a Civic, their son drives an Acura, their daughter a Corolla will be all upset and pissed that Ford is letting North America down because they are putting 30,000 people out of work......WAKE THE UP! The reason the domestic car market is in a decline (and has been for years) is because it got cool to buy imports, what was once viewed as a novelty is now mainstream and the "novelty" here is in watching the struggling domestic car companies try to pay their employees, their benefits and all their retirees because their sales have been heavily impacted and are they are now struggling to survive. These people should take a long hard look at themselves and their buying practices before they start pointing their fingers at GM and Ford and saying they are the problem here, take a long look in the mirror folks, its North American buying habbits that are to blame here, not the automobile manufacturers.
Now, I'm not pointing the finger at ANY of the import car makers, its not THEIR fault that people suddenly got a huge interest in their cars, the fact that there are no tarifs to pay to import their products here, that they can setup manufacturing/assembly facilities and assemble their cars over here and don't have the 50+ years of baggage in terms of benefits and retirees that the big three pay into makes the profits on their sales HUGE in comparison to any of the domestic companies.
Ford, GM and Chrysler have had basically free-reign on the domestic market since the car was first mass produced here. They have established a sort of automotive empire if you will, inside that empire is a heirarchical chain of companies and individuals that all feed the empire, this includes body panel manufacturing facilities, electronics companies, supply chains, 3rd party vendors....etc the list is HUGE. These companies and the individuals inside these companies all purchase the empire's product, its a delicate balance, a system that feeds itself and is engrained in the North American economy. The empire's product is being undercut now and when the empire suffers, the pain trickles down and the entire North American economy will suffer, and that means all of us.
Nobody has benefited from any of this except Hollywood film makers who get record sales to their hidious Slow and the Ricey films and of course the import car companies who are reaping the benefits of a market of sheep that will believe anything the mass-media publish. Anybody who wants to blame Ford, Dodge or GM here can take a look in their driveway, if it isn't a big-three product there, then the only person they can blame is themselves.
Rant mode off.
This is what happens when you go from bulding quality cars to cheap & unreliable crap. Ford and Chrysler have really started to change...GM on the other hand is light years behind.
I don't buy Ford because it's "Ford" I buy it because I like the Mustang. I own a Chevy, Dodge and a Ford and I'm looking at buying a Lexus next time around because, unfortunately, there's no domestic car that can compete in this certain segment.
A perfect example is that of my father. A man closing in on 60 years old, goes to purchase his first new car in his life. He's a big supporter of domestic cars. After looking into many options, he bought a Honda Civic Si.
Why? Better quality, better resale.
Later in 2006, GM will no longer be the largest car maker in the World. The fall of GM from the top can hardly be blammed on a movie, but rather the quality of the product they produce.
01-24-2006, 08:17 PM
#18
They are selling vehicles (currently) in segments that they have had their way with for decades (the domestics) we have had LOTS of mid-sized sedans from the big three (the grand prix, grand am, bonneville, Taurus, Breeze....etc) they just don't sell like their import cousins.
There were a LOT of people "persuaded" by that triad of movies, and like it or not, there are a LOT of sheep out there, read "The Lottery" for a prime example of how sheepish the human race can be, we covered it in 2nd year advanced English at University. I can think of a plethora of examples of human sheep-like activity, the entire **** movement for example. Now of course the argument to oppose that is that "well not everybody agreed with the ****'s" and you are correct, but not everybody buys imports, and not everybody is a sheep. There are leaders, and there are followers, for the most part, the human race consists of followers, some of whom are blind.
My point about the Corvette is that the domestic car companies have the ABILITY and the means to produce a vehicle that will get superior gas mileage and offer superior performance, and just because it has eight cylinders does not make it a gas guzzler. GM has released a variety of higher-powered yet still economical vehicles in the last while, but Imports are still out-selling them. in the hay-day of Muscle cars, dealers like Tasca, Yenko and the like went out and raced for the manufacturers they represented, this was used to help win sales. Then, the oil crisis hit, and this activity was largely snubbed out. Until the advent of the "Fast and the Furious" movies, Imports were generally viewed as nothing more than rather bland economy cars. "Souping up" import cars was almost exclusively a southern-California thing where young Asian kids were trying to extract every ounce of performance out of the small 4-cylinder engines.
Once those movies were released, there was a HUGE increase in import popularity nation-wide, and all of a sudden the entire mentality of how an Import car was percieved did a 180. It was no longer a bland economy car, it was now a fuel-efficient "tuner" car that could look flashy and was "youthful" unlike its domestic counterparts. Why do you think Honda, Toyota and Hyundai sell cars that I would consider "pre-riced" now? Its the youthful "flair" that muscle cars used to provide "back in the day", but modernized. This is what makes this entire ordeal so damaging, its not just current car buyers, its the next generation as well, the people who will be buying cars in the next few years and have been hit by the "import buzz". Like the Muscle Car era, it will take something huge that would rock this entire system on its axis in order to change the direction this system is headed, the oil crisis did this for the Muscle Cars, what could possibly do it for "The Imports" ?
There were a LOT of people "persuaded" by that triad of movies, and like it or not, there are a LOT of sheep out there, read "The Lottery" for a prime example of how sheepish the human race can be, we covered it in 2nd year advanced English at University. I can think of a plethora of examples of human sheep-like activity, the entire **** movement for example. Now of course the argument to oppose that is that "well not everybody agreed with the ****'s" and you are correct, but not everybody buys imports, and not everybody is a sheep. There are leaders, and there are followers, for the most part, the human race consists of followers, some of whom are blind.
My point about the Corvette is that the domestic car companies have the ABILITY and the means to produce a vehicle that will get superior gas mileage and offer superior performance, and just because it has eight cylinders does not make it a gas guzzler. GM has released a variety of higher-powered yet still economical vehicles in the last while, but Imports are still out-selling them. in the hay-day of Muscle cars, dealers like Tasca, Yenko and the like went out and raced for the manufacturers they represented, this was used to help win sales. Then, the oil crisis hit, and this activity was largely snubbed out. Until the advent of the "Fast and the Furious" movies, Imports were generally viewed as nothing more than rather bland economy cars. "Souping up" import cars was almost exclusively a southern-California thing where young Asian kids were trying to extract every ounce of performance out of the small 4-cylinder engines.
Once those movies were released, there was a HUGE increase in import popularity nation-wide, and all of a sudden the entire mentality of how an Import car was percieved did a 180. It was no longer a bland economy car, it was now a fuel-efficient "tuner" car that could look flashy and was "youthful" unlike its domestic counterparts. Why do you think Honda, Toyota and Hyundai sell cars that I would consider "pre-riced" now? Its the youthful "flair" that muscle cars used to provide "back in the day", but modernized. This is what makes this entire ordeal so damaging, its not just current car buyers, its the next generation as well, the people who will be buying cars in the next few years and have been hit by the "import buzz". Like the Muscle Car era, it will take something huge that would rock this entire system on its axis in order to change the direction this system is headed, the oil crisis did this for the Muscle Cars, what could possibly do it for "The Imports" ?
01-24-2006, 08:20 PM
#19
Originally Posted by CMOC Admin
I respectfully disagree.
This is what happens when you go from bulding quality cars to cheap & unreliable crap. Ford and Chrysler have really started to change...GM on the other hand is light years behind.
I don't buy Ford because it's "Ford" I buy it because I like the Mustang. I own a Chevy, Dodge and a Ford and I'm looking at buying a Lexus next time around because, unfortunately, there's no domestic car that can compete in this certain segment.
A perfect example is that of my father. A man closing in on 60 years old, goes to purchase his first new car in his life. He's a big supporter of domestic cars. After looking into many options, he bought a Honda Civic Si.
Why? Better quality, better resale.
Later in 2006, GM will no longer be the largest car maker in the World. The fall of GM from the top can hardly be blammed on a movie, but rather the quality of the product they produce.
This is what happens when you go from bulding quality cars to cheap & unreliable crap. Ford and Chrysler have really started to change...GM on the other hand is light years behind.
I don't buy Ford because it's "Ford" I buy it because I like the Mustang. I own a Chevy, Dodge and a Ford and I'm looking at buying a Lexus next time around because, unfortunately, there's no domestic car that can compete in this certain segment.
A perfect example is that of my father. A man closing in on 60 years old, goes to purchase his first new car in his life. He's a big supporter of domestic cars. After looking into many options, he bought a Honda Civic Si.
Why? Better quality, better resale.
Later in 2006, GM will no longer be the largest car maker in the World. The fall of GM from the top can hardly be blammed on a movie, but rather the quality of the product they produce.
I agree that GM has gone through a huge pile of quality issues, but you say you are thinking of purchasing a Lexus, have you looked at any of the new Cadillacs? What about something from BMW or Mercedes? I would consider a vehicle from ANY of those three "on par" with a Lexus. What about a Lincoln LS even?
01-25-2006, 10:44 AM
#20
CMOC Addict
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 636
Peeps do not buy cars based on a Movie. How many movies are made based on a domestic car? Dukes of hazard, Gone in 60 sec, two lane black top.... I ca go on forever, have you ever imagined a import company sitting there "This is why we don't sell cars... We need to make a movie with OUR cars in it! Besides, there were domestic cars in both F&F movies also.
I bought my first import (VW Jetta) after repeated Failures of my Domestics daily drivers while watching several family members roll 450K+ on their VW's without ever having a major repair. My 1995 Jetta feels like a brand new car at 170K. The last straw was when my sister borrowed my 2002 Dodge Dakota for a week and I drove her 460K 1997 Golf to work. It had less rattles and drove smoother than my new truck! Heck, my previous 10 domestic daily drivers all rattled like a can and almost every dam luxury in it no longer functioned. Sure as shiat, every dam feture (Power options) still worked in the Golf.
Fact: My 2002 Dodge Dakota has more rust on it than my original 1995 Jetta. That pissses me off.
Not saying Imports dont break but how many domestics and money does a guy have to go through before he wants to try something else?
Import companies also employ thousands of Canadian Families and are expanding even more.
I wont buy new again anyway so in reality I support no company. I took the hit once when I bought my 2002 Dakota for $40K. I tried to trade it in in 2004 and the most I was offered was $12,000! It had 50,000K on it.......
I do however see Domestic companies being slapped wit the reality hand, they will now be forced to be more competitive.
Funny thing to add, I was walking the line today and saw a thing,
A guy reading the paper about the ford layoff's WHILE HE is working. He was installing main bearings.....
One last thing... Why is is never mentioned when an impost plant openes up in North america? No-one guves thanks to the families they employ, they just blame them when a domestic plant closes.
Thats all!
I bought my first import (VW Jetta) after repeated Failures of my Domestics daily drivers while watching several family members roll 450K+ on their VW's without ever having a major repair. My 1995 Jetta feels like a brand new car at 170K. The last straw was when my sister borrowed my 2002 Dodge Dakota for a week and I drove her 460K 1997 Golf to work. It had less rattles and drove smoother than my new truck! Heck, my previous 10 domestic daily drivers all rattled like a can and almost every dam luxury in it no longer functioned. Sure as shiat, every dam feture (Power options) still worked in the Golf.
Fact: My 2002 Dodge Dakota has more rust on it than my original 1995 Jetta. That pissses me off.
Not saying Imports dont break but how many domestics and money does a guy have to go through before he wants to try something else?
Import companies also employ thousands of Canadian Families and are expanding even more.
I wont buy new again anyway so in reality I support no company. I took the hit once when I bought my 2002 Dakota for $40K. I tried to trade it in in 2004 and the most I was offered was $12,000! It had 50,000K on it.......
I do however see Domestic companies being slapped wit the reality hand, they will now be forced to be more competitive.
Funny thing to add, I was walking the line today and saw a thing,
A guy reading the paper about the ford layoff's WHILE HE is working. He was installing main bearings.....
One last thing... Why is is never mentioned when an impost plant openes up in North america? No-one guves thanks to the families they employ, they just blame them when a domestic plant closes.
Thats all!
Last edited by NXGHOST; 01-25-2006 at 11:02 AM.
